Suzy Lafeyette

from Apache to Willy

Moderátoři: lucabil, Suzy Lafayette

ScoutMan
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Registrován: 21 črc 2010, 20:03

Příspěvek od ScoutMan »

Suzy Lafayette píše:I don't get the problem... Q22 is clear enough, Suzy can play her last card (a Missed!) and pick another card from the deck: if it is a Missed! she can avoid Slab bang, if it is not, simply she keep the card in the hand and loses one life point. All this according to the official rules specified through the FAQ, no matter about "timing" of the game, and in this case about Slab bang.
For two reasons I'm not sure that Suzy can draw a card hoping for a Missed! if she is hit by Slab:

1) First, it contradicts the generally understood rule, that you must wait for the effect of a card played to be resolved before proceeding, as Suzy Lafayette very well pointed out.
Suzy Lafayette píše:She draws one card.

Before to check how many cards Suzy have, you must wait the end of the effect of the card: you play the dodge and draw one card; then you check Suzy card numbers (already one so you don't active the ability).

The same if Suzy plays General Store as last card: she takes the card of the G.S.; then you make the check (already one so you don't active the ability). Pony Express, Wells Fargo etc.: same rule.
This rule is applied to the Duel, since Suzy must wait for the Duel to end before drawing a card. Why not here?

2) This question no longer exists in the FAQ at the davinci website? Maybe Emilliano reconsidered?

I know this is an old post, but an answer (or at least a point of view) would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
ScoutMan
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Registrován: 21 črc 2010, 20:03

Příspěvek od ScoutMan »

Suzy Lafayette píše:
cober píše:Can Suzy Lafayette die with no cards? For example, if she loses a duel and has no cards in her hand, does she get to draw another card in the hopes that it is a beer?
nice case :wink: I think it may happen only with the duel, the answer should be YES since she has to wait the effect of the duel (so she die) before to draw
Suzy is right. If you are dead, you can't draw cards... :!: :roll:

This is also the case for Bart Cassidy, El Gringo, etc. If they take the final hit (not only from a duel) when they have no cards, they don't draw to see if it's a beer.
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Suzy Lafayette
Moderator
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Registrován: 25 úno 2007, 14:29
Bydliště: Macerata, Italy

Příspěvek od Suzy Lafayette »

[quote:50fe38d4da="ScoutMan"]

2) This question no longer exists in the FAQ at the davinci website? Maybe Emilliano reconsidered?

[/quote:50fe38d4da]

The new FAQ are very poor in comparison to the old ones, not only about Suzy-Slab, and I really cannot understand the reason

Altough I do not believe at any reconsideration only Emiliano could answer :roll:
ScoutMan
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Registrován: 21 črc 2010, 20:03

Příspěvek od ScoutMan »

Thank you for your answer. But I would like to know what you think about the Q22 (Slab-Suzy) and Q24 (Suzy in a Duel) in the FAQ . I think that either both should be YES or both should be NO. They seem to have the same logical base and that's why I don't understand why different things happen.
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Suzy Lafayette
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Registrován: 25 úno 2007, 14:29
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Příspěvek od Suzy Lafayette »

ScoutMan píše:Thank you for your answer. But I would like to know what you think about the Q22 (Slab-Suzy) and Q24 (Suzy in a Duel) in the FAQ . I think that either both should be YES or both should be NO. They seem to have the same logical base and that's why I don't understand why different things happen.
time ago I should have found a way to justify that, but I admit I cannot remember it (if any) :lol:

at the moment I see only a (former) "dictat" by the FAQ :roll: so I can agree with you :wink:
Marlin
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Registrován: 08 zář 2011, 12:53
Bydliště: Sweden

Re: Suzy Lafeyette

Příspěvek od Marlin »

OK, I only now stumbled on this forum and I had to register just to comment on the confusion regarding Suzy Lafayette's ability – in particular versus Slab the Killer or in a Duel.

So, not only has the man himself, Emiliano Sciarra, already clarified what applies, in this very forum. His answer also is solidly based on logic and rules consistency (despite what some seem to think). In fact, had he ruled in any other way than he did, it would have made little or no sense to me.

Simply put: Whenever a card or character ability has been played and resolved (and only then) – and Suzy Lafayette finds herself without any cards on hand – she draws a card!

This may not be spelled out in exactly those words in the printed rules, but I believe it follows common sense and practice in many card games. Plus, more importantly, it is consistent with all FAQ answers – including the one on Suzy in a Duel and the one on Suzy vs. Slab – as well as with Emiliano's clarification here.

So why is this simple rule apparently still causing so much confusion?


Discard versus Play
I think there are two places where player minds may go wrong. First, I suspect that many or most may forget that, during the resolution of a Duel, Bang cards are discarded, not played. (This distinction is important, and not only in the case of Suzy Lafayette and her ability; also see for instance Apache Kid.) I can at least see how such a lapse could easily lead to the erroneous analogy with the play of Missed cards versus a Bang, drawn by oh so many posters (not just ScoutMan).
ScoutMan píše:I would like to know what you think about the Q22 (Slab-Suzy) and Q24 (Suzy in a Duel) in the FAQ . I think that either both should be YES or both should be NO. They seem to have the same logical base and that's why I don't understand why different things happen.
Different things happen because they are two entirely different cases! (By the way, note that in Emiliano's current FAQ they are renumbered. When writing this: Slab-Suzy = Q27, Suzy in Duel = Q22. Presumably this was to make numbers match the new and more limited FAQ from daVinci which only goes to Q26.)

The Missed card in the former case is independently played and resolved (after a Bang was played and resolved). The Bang card in the latter is just discarded as part of the Duel resolution.


Card play, resolution and timing
Second, regarding card play and card resolution and timing in general, it seems to me that conceptions are often a bit on the hazy side.
Spaghetti Western píše:When Slab The Killer play a bang! card against you, you must play two missed! card at the same time to avoid his shot (the card says that you need two cards instead of one, and i guess it should be played at the same time).
No cards are ever played simultaneously. Cards are played consecutively, one after the other. I believe this is the general rule in most card games, and it is certainly true in this particular case, as shown by Emiliano Sciarra's FAQ and clarification.
Spaghetti Western píše:What happens if the second card is not a missed one? Is it played but doesn't work? Is it come back to Suzy's hand and the other card is discarted?
When a card is played, it is played. (It does not come back.) You can always play a Missed card in response to being shot at. It's just that, if the shooter is Slab the Killer with a Bang card, you need to follow the play of the first Missed with a second one, or else there will be no effect. So, to answer the question, if Suzy plays a single Missed versus Slab, and then draws something else, nothing happens, nothing at all. (And Slab's Bang remains un-evaded.)

It's very much like a failed attempt to use a Barrel against any shooter.
Spaghetti Western píše:Note that barrels are exceptions to the rule of avoiding bangs.
No, they aren't. You play the ability of a Barrel just as you would a Missed card (consecutively, each Missed ability/card after the other).
ScoutMan píše:...it contradicts the generally understood rule, that you must wait for the effect of a card played to be resolved before proceeding
No, it doesn't. The card played – which is Suzy's Missed card, not Slab's Bang – has been resolved as soon as it hits the table. There is nothing more to the resolution of a Missed card: no discards and no intrinsic card draws and nothing else to resolve. And, by the way, Slab's Bang too has been resolved, already before Suzy played her Missed.

Remember: There is no card stack in Bang! (Unlike in Magic: the Gathering.) And so the reasonable assumption must be that each card is resolved as it is played. What else? (The alternatives that I can see would be either to implement a card stack and MtG backwards resolution order anyway, or else somehow "resolve every played card all at once" which would be a crazy mess.)

In any case, Emiliano has clarified this point here in this forum:
Emiliano píše:Why Suzy can draw against Slab, then?
Because, technically speaking, the effect of the Bang! card is already over. ...
(Obviously, if we are to nitpick semantics, the effect of the Bang can't be over, or there wouldn't be a point to playing Missed cards in the first place, but the resolution of this effect certainly can be - and is - over.)

The effect left behind by the (fully resolved) Bang card is not a hit. It's a flying bullet – that is a pending hit on Suzy that will happen unless she manage, in two following card plays, to present two Missed. The effect left behind by the (also fully resolved) first Missed card, is a fulfillment of half the evasion requirement.
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