[Wild West Show] review and questions

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[Wild West Show] review and questions

Postby Guest » 10 Jul 2010, 14:32

I have just bought the Wild West Show extension. The 1st impression is that the new cards are interesting, but there are still several things unclear, and I am not too sure about their balance. They seem overly much more powerful than the classic characters.

Flint Westwood (4 HP)
Ability:
During his turn, he may trade one card from hand with 2 cards at random from the hand of another player (if the target player has only 1 card, you get only 1 card)
Opinion:
Holy shit this character is way too strong. The 2nd most imbalance in the pack. Stronger than Jesse James, whom I consider one of the strongest characters in Bang!. To him, no card is bad (kinda like Jose Delgado), because trash card for him is equal to Dilligence + Panic (sort of)! I think he should definitely be 3HP, or maybe can only trade for 1 card
Question:
1) I suppose it's obvious he can only use his ability once per turn, but if Emiliano can confirm it then great.
2) If he targets Suzy Lafayette, will she get his card first or will she hand her cards to him first (and pick a new card if it's her last card)?

Youl Grinner (4 HP)
Ability:
Before drawing, players with more hand cards than him must give him one card of their choice.
Opinion:
Decent character. Need to play more to judge him.
Question:
1) "Before drawing" means before Youl Grinner draws or before each player draws?

Big Spencer (9 HP)
Ability:
He starts with 5 cards. He can't play Missed!
Opinion:
Pretty strong defensive character I guess. There are many other Missed effect cards to use anyway, and you can always hide behind Mustang and stuffs. Also, don't know how many cards he can hold, if it's 9 then he really is too powerful. He laughs at the Dynamite. His allies will love to have him when it's Blood Brothers round.
Question:
1) He starts with 5 cards, but after that, can he hold more than 5 cards (up to 9)?

Teren Hill(3 HP)
Ability:
Each time he would be eliminated, "draw!": if it is not Spades, Teren stays at 1 life point, and draws 1 card. If the draw is unsuccessful, you can't play a Beer to save you.
Opinion:
Very strong defensive character. He kinda has 6HP (4HP for the last and 2 other), and he can even draw 1 card when he successfully escapes death! Compared to, say, Jourdonnais, who has effective 5HP and that's it. Sure Jourdonnais can hold up to 4 cards, but I still consider Teren Hill much stronger.
Question:
1) If he dies to Dynamite when he has 1HP left, how many times would he draw? 3 times or once? If thrice, how many cards he would draw next? 3?

Lee Van Kliff (4 HP)
Ability:
During his turn, he may discard a BANG! to repeat the effect of a brown-bordered card he just played. The brown card may be also another BANG! You may repeat each effect one time only. [Some other things related to WWS cards here, will review later...]
Opinion:
Strong offensive character. Imagine repeat Indians or Gattling, that would be fun ^^. If I play him, I would probably keep the Bang with me and attack by other means (Shot Gun, Punch...). Bang are too precious to him to waste that way.
Question:
1) If he just bang someone, can he repeats the Bang effect even without Volcanic?
2) What if he repeats some special cards like Whisky, which requires to discard another card?

John Pain (4 HP)
Ability:
If he has less than 6 cards in hand, each time any player "draws!", John adds the card just drawn to his hand. The card drawn this way may not be used immediately, you must wait until the previous effect ends. For example if it's a Beer and you lose at the same time your last life point, you may not use it.
Opinion:
Interesting character. Great when play together with Lucky Duke ^^. If I'm low on cards I would definitely throw a Dynamite out there :D.
Question:
None so far.

Gary Looter (5 HP)
Ability:
He draws all excess cards discarded by other players at the end of their turn.
Opinion:
Normal in the beginning, but after a while when people start dropping HP (he can surely wait because he has 5HP!) and have to discard excess cards, he becomes quite powerful. Can get like 10 cards at once (although most of them are probably trash cards :P). He will surely love it when the last round was something like Handcuffs or The Judge.
Question:
1) Can he still draw normally?
2) Does "Law of the West" apply to him?
3) Will the discarded cards go to his hand as soon as they are discarded or he has to wait till it's his round? If it's the former case, Pedro Ramirez is useless, if it's the later, that means we will have to keep the discarded pile of the last round separately to avoid confusion :(.

Greygory Deck(4 HP)
Ability:
At the start of his turn, he may draw 2 characters at random. He has all the abilities of the drawn characters. The only valid are those from the basic game. At the beginning of your next turn, you decide whether to keep the characters or to change them. If you chose to change them, you must change both of them. This ability also applies at the beginning of the game.
Opinion:
May I say imbalance? He is way too powerful!!! Strongest character ever. With 4HP (so no penalty in HP), he has the ability of 2 characters!!! He can even change it if they don't please him. If he gets a combo like Sean Mallory and Elena Fuente people can just forfeit (can he? not sure what "basic game" means, would it include Dodge City?). Or even Willy The Kid + Slab the Killer. Or Sid Ketchum + Black Jack...
Question:
1) Can he use characters from Dodge City?
2) When he change characters, will the current character cards go back to the random pack (to be picked again) or will they be discarded? If discarded, what if we run out of characters?
3) What if the characters' abilities are similar, for example Kit Carlson and Black Jack? Must he say which character he chooses before drawing, or can he use the ability of both?

That's it guys. Hope you enjoy my review, and hope Emiliano will answer my questions if he visits here as he used to. I still haven't had the chance to play the WWS cards (there are 10 of them, and the rules seem complicated). Will review them later.
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my opinion

Postby Lugre » 12 Jul 2010, 19:34

in my opinion.....
answers
Flint Westwood
1)I agree that he can use that only once per his turn.
2)I'm not sure I get the question, but if Suzy has only one card, he takes only that card and then she picks a card from the deck...
Youl Grinner
1)I think it means before he draws.
Big Spencer
1)According to the rules, he could hold up to 9 cards, nevertheless that's just too much and I would limit it.
Teren Hill
1) "each time he would be eliminated" - it doesn't matter that dynamite takes 3 HP from you, you're simply dead, so I would draw just once.
Lee Van Kliff
1)No, just with Volcanic...
2)So he just need to discard another card to apply it.
Gary Looter
1)Yeah
2)It applies to the normal draw, this ability has nothing to do with it.
3)The discarded cards go to his hand immediately, Pedro can take the card which was under them...
Greygory Deck
1)No
2)The cards go back to the deck to be picked again.
3)He can use whatever he wants, he's a GOD. Muhahahahaha!
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Postby Suzy Lafayette » 13 Jul 2010, 10:27

iamj4de wrote:Flint Westwood (4 HP)
Ability:
During his turn, he may trade one card from hand with 2 cards at random from the hand of another player (if the target player has only 1 card, you get only 1 card)
Opinion:
Holy shit this character is way too strong. The 2nd most imbalance in the pack. Stronger than Jesse James, whom I consider one of the strongest characters in Bang!. To him, no card is bad (kinda like Jose Delgado), because trash card for him is equal to Dilligence + Panic (sort of)! I think he should definitely be 3HP, or maybe can only trade for 1 card
Question:
1) I suppose it's obvious he can only use his ability once per turn, but if Emiliano can confirm it then great.
2) If he targets Suzy Lafayette, will she get his card first or will she hand her cards to him first (and pick a new card if it's her last card)?


Opinion:
I didn't playtest Flint as it was a late character, he is strong but he does not look so deadly: in the most cases a little better than Jesse James (that is already quite strong, I agree) -1+2cards VS +1card; sometimes worse -1+1card VS +1card

Question:
1) One per turn or he may steal all the cards but one!
2) I do not understand exactly. I imagine you mean the case Suzy has got 1 card only. I guess Flint gets the one and then Suzy pick up and keep a new one from the deck


iamj4de wrote:Youl Grinner (4 HP)
Ability:
Before drawing, players with more hand cards than him must give him one card of their choice.
Opinion:
Decent character. Need to play more to judge him.
Question:
1) "Before drawing" means before Youl Grinner draws or before each player draws?


Opinion:
Much stronger than what thinkable before to play it; especially if used by a smart player :wink:

Question:
1) Youl Grinner draw

iamj4de wrote:Big Spencer (9 HP)
Ability:
He starts with 5 cards. He can't play Missed!
Opinion:
Pretty strong defensive character I guess. There are many other Missed effect cards to use anyway, and you can always hide behind Mustang and stuffs. Also, don't know how many cards he can hold, if it's 9 then he really is too powerful. He laughs at the Dynamite. His allies will love to have him when it's Blood Brothers round.
Question:
1) He starts with 5 cards, but after that, can he hold more than 5 cards (up to 9)?


Opinion:
At the contrary less stronger than what you can think, even with Dodge City. Try to believe!

Question:
1) Yes he can.

iamj4de wrote:Teren Hill(3 HP)
Ability:
Each time he would be eliminated, "draw!": if it is not Spades, Teren stays at 1 life point, and draws 1 card. If the draw is unsuccessful, you can't play a Beer to save you.
Opinion:
Very strong defensive character. He kinda has 6HP (4HP for the last and 2 other), and he can even draw 1 card when he successfully escapes death! Compared to, say, Jourdonnais, who has effective 5HP and that's it. Sure Jourdonnais can hold up to 4 cards, but I still consider Teren Hill much stronger.
Question:
1) If he dies to Dynamite when he has 1HP left, how many times would he draw? 3 times or once? If thrice, how many cards he would draw next? 3?


Opinion:
You made a good comparison with Jourdonnais but take care that Teren cannot use Beers after faling the "draw!"

Question:
1) Only once and pick up 1 card.

iamj4de wrote:Lee Van Kliff (4 HP)
Ability:
During his turn, he may discard a BANG! to repeat the effect of a brown-bordered card he just played. The brown card may be also another BANG! You may repeat each effect one time only. [Some other things related to WWS cards here, will review later...]
Opinion:
Strong offensive character. Imagine repeat Indians or Gattling, that would be fun ^^. If I play him, I would probably keep the Bang with me and attack by other means (Shot Gun, Punch...). Bang are too precious to him to waste that way.
Question:
1) If he just bang someone, can he repeats the Bang effect even without Volcanic?
2) What if he repeats some special cards like Whisky, which requires to discard another card?


Opinion:
Yes, he may be deadly, especially being Renegade or anyway once remained alone, nice one!

Question:
1) Yes, it is clearly specified
2) By reading the text it may seem he doesn't need to discard another card to "repeat the effect" but IMHO he should; I'm not 100% sure as this was the other very late character of testing phase and he is new to me

iamj4de wrote:John Pain (4 HP)
Ability:
If he has less than 6 cards in hand, each time any player "draws!", John adds the card just drawn to his hand. The card drawn this way may not be used immediately, you must wait until the previous effect ends. For example if it's a Beer and you lose at the same time your last life point, you may not use it.
Opinion:
Interesting character. Great when play together with Lucky Duke ^^. If I'm low on cards I would definitely throw a Dynamite out there :D.
Question:
None so far.


Opinion:
Without the cap of 6 cards he was damn strong! Nice like this :)

iamj4de wrote:Gary Looter (5 HP)
Ability:
He draws all excess cards discarded by other players at the end of their turn.
Opinion:
Normal in the beginning, but after a while when people start dropping HP (he can surely wait because he has 5HP!) and have to discard excess cards, he becomes quite powerful. Can get like 10 cards at once (although most of them are probably trash cards :P). He will surely love it when the last round was something like Handcuffs or The Judge.
Question:
1) Can he still draw normally?
2) Does "Law of the West" apply to him?
3) Will the discarded cards go to his hand as soon as they are discarded or he has to wait till it's his round? If it's the former case, Pedro Ramirez is useless, if it's the later, that means we will have to keep the discarded pile of the last round separately to avoid confusion :(.


Opinion:
The best thing is surely to have 5 life points (and 5 cards in the hand)!

Question:
1) Of course!
2) Yes, the ability has nothing to do with it.
3) Immediately.

iamj4de wrote:Greygory Deck(4 HP)
Ability:
At the start of his turn, he may draw 2 characters at random. He has all the abilities of the drawn characters. The only valid are those from the basic game. At the beginning of your next turn, you decide whether to keep the characters or to change them. If you chose to change them, you must change both of them. This ability also applies at the beginning of the game.
Opinion:
May I say imbalance? He is way too powerful!!! Strongest character ever. With 4HP (so no penalty in HP), he has the ability of 2 characters!!! He can even change it if they don't please him. If he gets a combo like Sean Mallory and Elena Fuente people can just forfeit (can he? not sure what "basic game" means, would it include Dodge City?). Or even Willy The Kid + Slab the Killer. Or Sid Ketchum + Black Jack...
Question:
1) Can he use characters from Dodge City?
2) When he change characters, will the current character cards go back to the random pack (to be picked again) or will they be discarded? If discarded, what if we run out of characters?
3) What if the characters' abilities are similar, for example Kit Carlson and Black Jack? Must he say which character he chooses before drawing, or can he use the ability of both?


Opinion:
Yes, great character but he may take only "basic game" characters/abilities. He is another late character and I didn't playtest him at all so my answers have to be verified.

Question:
1) Nope, he cannot.
2) I guess shuffled each time.
3) Even if the rules says that Gregory uses both the abilities, some mix couldn't be used (ex. Jesse + Pedro) and other cases are doubtful. There must be a general rule but I don't know it; and some cases should be clarified by FAQ (ex. Jesse or Pedro + Kit)
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Postby Guest » 15 Jul 2010, 20:31

1) Youl Grinner draw

Personally I'd play this rule as "each player draws", it helps avoiding confusion. Imagine Youl Grinner has 1 card and everyone else has 2 cards. If we play by your rule, at the beginning of Youl Grinner's turn, everyone is supposed to give him 1 card. But as soon as the 1st player next to him gives him his card, the number of cards of the 2nd player is equal to Youl's, so it's unclear whether he should still give Youl one card. Sure we can add a FAQ to clarify, but I'd rather keep it simple for casual players. Less thing to remember.
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Re: [Wild West Show] review and questions

Postby c3le » 13 Sep 2010, 15:08

iamj4de wrote:
Flint Westwood (4 HP)
Ability:
During his turn, he may trade one card from hand with 2 cards at random from the hand of another player (if the target player has only 1 card, you get only 1 card)
Opinion:
Holy shit this character is way too strong. The 2nd most imbalance in the pack. Stronger than Jesse James, whom I consider one of the strongest characters in Bang!. To him, no card is bad (kinda like Jose Delgado), because trash card for him is equal to Dilligence + Panic (sort of)! I think he should definitely be 3HP, or maybe can only trade for 1 card
Question:
1) I suppose it's obvious he can only use his ability once per turn, but if Emiliano can confirm it then great.
2) If he targets Suzy Lafayette, will she get his card first or will she hand her cards to him first (and pick a new card if it's her last card)?



Yes, he is VERY powerful indeed.

2. Should he ever target Suzy with 1 card, he only gets that one card (ability resolved) and suzy gets a new one. You either trade 2 for 1 or 1 for 1.

But I underlined the Jesse James one. TBH, Bart Cassidy IS gamewise the best player in the game because he has no drawbacks of any kind.

Imagine Jesse playing and no-one has any cards left, or 1vs1 he steals the only card his enemy has and it's a beer! Ability wasted!

But instead imagine Bart:

a)No one attacks him --> okay!
b)You get attacked and lose life point --> CARD!
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Postby c3le » 13 Sep 2010, 15:13

iamj4de wrote:Personally I'd play this rule as "each player draws", it helps avoiding confusion. Imagine Youl Grinner has 1 card and everyone else has 2 cards. If we play by your rule, at the beginning of Youl Grinner's turn, everyone is supposed to give him 1 card. But as soon as the 1st player next to him gives him his card, the number of cards of the 2nd player is equal to Youl's, so it's unclear whether he should still give Youl one card. Sure we can add a FAQ to clarify, but I'd rather keep it simple for casual players. Less thing to remember.


I think you have to look at the whole picture instead of resolving the effect one at a time:

So imagine 5 players, Youl's turn and everyone has those 2 cards except for Youl. You check "ahem, everyone else has more than he does." and thus everyone simutaneously gives Youl an extra card. Right?
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Postby Guest » 13 Sep 2010, 15:19

Meh, I don't think Bart Cassidy is powerful. He is... average, never a fan of him. Sure he has no obvious drawback, but his strength is not great neither. I'd pick José Delgado, Jesse James, Belle Star... over him any day. They also have no real drawback, except maybe the fact that they are too powerful, you are prone to be the target of focus fire.
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Postby c3le » 13 Sep 2010, 15:28

iamj4de wrote:Meh, I don't think Bart Cassidy is powerful. He is... average, never a fan of him. Sure he has no obvious drawback, but his strength is not great neither. I'd pick José Delgado, Jesse James, Belle Star... over him any day. They also have no real drawback, except maybe the fact that they are too powerful, you are prone to be the target of focus fire.


iamj4de wrote:I'd pick José Delgado, Jesse James, Belle Star... over him any day. They also have no real drawback, except maybe the fact that they are too powerful, you are prone to be the target of focus fire.


Without taking part of the question of randomness from the deck; you are mistaken my dear friend.

FACT1: Everyone wants to stay alive
FACT2: If you don't get attacked your chances of F1 are good :)

Drawbacks:

José : Never get any excess blue cards (ability = reduntant)
Belle : Enemies don't have any cards in play (ability = reduntant)
Now James does differ a bit from them...sort of. If enemies don't have any cards that obviously sucks from them but that makes Jesse's ability reduntant.

I admit Jesse is powerful, but not AS powerful as Bart. I see Bart as a very undermined character. People usually don't choose him because his ability is not offensive/straightforward enough. But as a sheriff for example, you get four (4) extra cards before possible elimination! That's an ADVANTAGE.
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Postby Guest » 13 Sep 2010, 15:44

Uhm no.

José: All brown cards and green cards are normally good cards. Most of the times if I have a bad hand that I just want to throw away, it means I have a bunch of useless guns or double Barrels or Dynamite etc.... So his ability ensures that in the least, he has virtually no bad card, and that is already a HUGE plus. The fact that he can turn any Blue card into a Dilligence is just icing on the cake.

Bella: Enemies don't have any cards in play = great. 50% of the times when I attack someone, they defend by using green or blue cards, or sometimes I can't attack, Panic... them at all because of stupid Mustang or something like that.

James: yeah if the enemies have no card in hand => no need to play guessing game for you, you can define a strategy to attack him or prepare for next rounds all the way you want.

Also, you have to think how many times those special cases would really happen. In the course of a standard game, the number of times these characters can use their ability far outweight the rare cases when they can't, and when they can use their ability, the benefits are so much stronger. 4 extra cards? That's nothing to Black Jack or José Delgado, who can get like 6-10 extra cards each normal mid-size game (5 players), or even more. And just having a few extra cards when you are shot won't win you games. The benefit when you attack, when you pick the cards EACH ROUND, or when you defend... are very important. Sid Ketchum, Suzy Lafayette, Calamity Janet... all of them have better match-winning ability than Bart imo.
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Postby c3le » 13 Sep 2010, 17:45

To be honest, I've gotten to know many of the characters of from the original game and DC and even tactic-wise their pros/cons.


Also, you have to think how many times those special cases would really happen.


Actually, this happens quite often. Just guess how many times a player playing with José hasn't gotten ANY blue cards during a game? Or when playing with Pedro, the player before you plays a BEER just to annoy you? This happens, I assure you. Maybe not on your every other game but when it does...feels bad man. I mean, admit that when playing Suzy (virtually the most offensive and rudest character of all [I once got a combo of what, 10 cards?]) you keep drawing MISSED cards every frigging turn, it happens.

In my last post I didn't want to discuss the stack / randomness of the draw but it seems it is a very crucial effect of the game.

Each character in the game is not automatically "the best" because you might always get a bad hand. I admit it, it would be silly to base my whole argument on the fact that "yea you get lousy draws everytime and somehow this makes your character suck" but you must take that into account.

And just having a few extra cards when you are shot won't win you games


No, what I meant was that if you don't get shot, good for you but if you do, at least you aren't left out cold. There's still a benefit! This is why I think Bart is the best character game-wise. Clearly with role cards this changes and that must be taken into account.
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Postby Guest » 13 Sep 2010, 18:29

And you think I don't know the pro/con and tactics of those characters?

You are exaggerating the ability of Bart, of that I'm sure. He is a safe character in the sense that you're likely to stay alive longer than some 3-HP characters or offensive characters with no defense mechanism like Slab the killer or Doc Holiday, but nothing more than that. His contribution to his team is minimal. He is a very passive character.

It is VERY RARE that José doesn't get any blue card during a game, and as I told you, even if that happens, it's fine, it means all his cards are good anyway. And why would Pedro frowns if the player before him plays a Beer? He'd gladly accept that card. Yes if you get extremely bad luck in weird situations then sometimes your ability is worthless, but you can't use extreme cases to justify a character's strength or weakness.

And the whole argument of "if you don't get shot, good for you..." is not convincing at all. Look at Jourdonnais, he has exactly that kind of ability. Would you say he is the 2nd-best character?

Think about it like this: your ability is even much worse than a Dodge card (= Dodge - 1HP). Molly Stark can turn any Missed, Bang, Beer cards into a Dodge card, and don't tell me the case when she has none all game because it's very rare. And she keeps her HP intact, which means she can hold up to 4 cards, whereas in your case your hand cards keep decreasing. How you can think this ability is the best in game is beyond me.

If I am a sheriff, I'd rather build my fortress thanks to my green-blue cards on play, build up good hand with my Picking ability (Jesse James, Black Jack...) and never lose life than putting my hope on 4 extra random cards when I lose my precious life.

I repeat, in REGULAR games with no extremity (i.e. situations with less than 10% probability to happen), José, Belle Star, Jesse James, Suzy... all of them have much better ability than Bart. If we make a poll I'm pretty sure this is the general consensus, the difference is too far it's hard to see it otherwise.
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Postby c3le » 13 Sep 2010, 19:14

Ok, I'll try this route:

Every character (excluding Bart) follows this path;

Pro = a good combination of desired cards + character ability = :)
Con = a bad combination of (wanted) cards + character ability = :(

(okay Saint the Claus isn't a good character anyways)

And even when everything else fails (usually by ending up dying) Bart still wins by getting a card.

This is what I was after. Of course it doesn't seem like a "WOW!" ability but this is when the stack and randomness of cards kicks in and makes it all interesting.

Even when playing < 4 players / no roles.
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Postby Guest » 13 Sep 2010, 20:05

You still forget one crucial thing: probability. In a luck-dependant game like Bang!, probability is a huge factor. One more thing you forget is that each benefit has different weight. Let me rewrite your "formula":

Strong characters (Jesse, Jose, Suzy...):
- Extremely good cards (10%): + ability = 10
- Good cards (20%) + ability = 9
- Average cards (40%) + ability = 7
- Bad cards (20%) + ability = 3
- Extremely bad cards (10%) + ability = 1

Bart:
- Extremely good cards (10%): + ability = 7
- Good cards (20%) + ability = 5
- Average cards (40%) + ability = 4
- Bad cards (20%) + ability = 3
- Extremely bad cards (10%) + ability = 2

(Numbers are just for illustrious purpose).

So, my point is, although Bart Cassidy is less affected by the cards itself, in average he is just mediocre. Even with really good cards he can't wreck havoc like the other characters can. And if (when) he gets bad luck (those extra cards are all useless guns for example), he also becomes zero-ability character just like everyone else.
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Postby Suzy Lafayette » 14 Sep 2010, 08:03

I was the first one to doubt it, but I had to admit Bart Cassidy is a strong character playing with original Bang! deck of 80 cards. This is my database results since I have started to register my games (5 to 7 players):

Image

Code: Select all
V=Won
P=Lost
G=Played


I still don't believe to have El Gringo on 4th!! :shock:

IMHO with Dodge City Suzy Lafayette is far apart the strongest one, and Bart Cassidy is probably just in the average :roll:

IMHO if you don't consider a 5+ players game but just duels (ex. final duels), Bart is not that strong. Ex. Jesse James VS Bart Cassidy starting with same life points and amount of cards, I think we are around a 70-30 duel.
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Postby Guest » 14 Sep 2010, 09:56

Probably, I almost never played original game only anyway. Dodge City is so much more fun, plus High Noon and AFOC. From my experience in my group (we also played thousands of games), Bart is never a character who made a big impact toward the game result.

And I actually think this kind of statistics is a little bit inaccurate to judge an ability, in the sense that, people usually don't care about Bart => he is more likely to stay alive and win (although doing nothing much). The other strong characters are more likely to be attacked first or focused fire, and lose. This can be seen with your statistics, when he is a Regenade (without real allies to "carry" him), his result is terrible. Or as you said, when playing duel.
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