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Sid Ketchum

PostPosted: 22 Aug 2011, 15:16
by Raziel
"Q34. Can Sid Ketchum use his ability even outside his turn, like a Beer card?
A. Yes, he can. "

What to do in case of disputable situation when an active player play a card and at the same time with it Sid Ketchum uses his ability?

Re: Sid Ketchum

PostPosted: 22 Aug 2011, 15:22
by Suzy Lafayette
Simply Sid Ketchum cannot use his ability when af effect is pending, so you just have to check which action comes first, often a matter of gumption :wink:

Re: Sid Ketchum

PostPosted: 22 Aug 2011, 15:43
by Raziel
If a player starts to play a card, but have not put it on the table, and Sid at this time play hisability

1. player starts playing card (Panic!) (takes it from hand)
2 Sid says that playing ability
3 The player puts the card on table
4. Sid discard 2 cards

Does not arise disputes about the primacy?

Re: Sid Ketchum

PostPosted: 22 Aug 2011, 15:48
by Suzy Lafayette
That's why I was speaking about gumption... It should be "the first who puts cards in the discard pile", but you still need gumption :wink:

"At any time"

PostPosted: 09 Sep 2011, 21:20
by Marlin
I'd find it extremely weird if, in this game, it would come down to the players' physical prowess or reflexes, or gumption if you like, what gets played or when, and who gets to play it.

The "at any time" in Sid Ketchum's game rule entry (not on his card) can obviously not be taken as it stands. It must be qualified, or the game wouldn't work well. A reasonable starting point, for any ability, not just Sid's (and not just in this game), is the one hinted at by Suzy:
No ability or card can ever be played while another card or ability is being resolved!

But I don't think that's enough! Fortunately, searching the Web for info on Sid Ketchum, I found the following quote by Emiliano Sciarra:

Emiliano – on BoardGameGeek in 2005 - wrote:Actually, Sid Ketchum can use his ability "at any time": that is, at any time he is allowed to legally play a card.

Although Emiliano doesn't explicitly say "Beer card" here, I would like to believe that's what he is referring to. (The discussion where he made his statement was on how Sid's ability compares to Beer.) In which case Sid's ability simply becomes:

At any time that he could legally play a Beer card, if he had one,
Sid Ketchum may discard 2 cards from his hand to regain one life point.

If Emiliano really meant any card, then I believe the only addition - (that is, the only time that play of a card is allowed when play of Beer is not) - would be in response to non-lethal Bang effects. (Play of a Missed card is then allowed when Beer is not.) In any case I'd still say, if a player plays Panic against him, Sid's ability won't help him one bit (regardless of gumption).

(Of course, other than the above quote, there is little support to be found in rules or FAQs for any qualifications to the "at any time"-ness of Sid's ability.)

Re: "At any time"

PostPosted: 09 Sep 2011, 22:58
by Marlin
...And only when I had posted this, I discovered that Emiliano Sciarra had made another statement on Sid Ketchum in this forum. Which seems to contradict his earlier one on BoardGameGeek. Gone is the qualification that he must be allowed to legally play a card. (Or at least how I read it.) Now the only limitation is the prohibition against interrupting an ongoing card or ability resolution.

So it seems that Suzy Lafayette was entirely right all along. Gumption does apparently determine play order in Bang. (Along with physical prowess and reflexes.) Sorry about the confusion.

Re: Sid Ketchum

PostPosted: 10 Sep 2011, 09:34
by Suzy Lafayette
Yeah, from what I can remember, Emiliano statement of 2005 was referred to a previous version of Sid Ketchum (Bang 1st edition) which was cosindered too weak and has been changed in 2nd edition.

History of Sid Ketchum

PostPosted: 30 Sep 2011, 21:00
by Marlin
The Sid of 1st ed. and the Sid of 2nd
A somewhat late response, but I now found what seems to be the 1st ed. manual and a PDF detailing changes from 1st to 2nd ed. And it appears that the original Sid Ketchum discarded three cards for his single one life point. Reduced to two cards/life point in the 2nd edition.

Also, among Emiliano's comments on the 1st ed. characters (2002):
Emiliano - on BGG in 2002 - wrote:He may discard 3 cards to regain one life point. This is generally considered the weakest character of the set. However, if you play carefully you could be able to remain one of the last two players alive. In this case this is an extremely dangerous opponent since he can regain lost life points while his opponent cannot play Beer in the final fight to the death.

And in the 2003 change FAQ:
daVinci games, in 2003, wrote:Overall, Sid Ketchum was considered to be the weakest character in the lot. His new ability now can be activated more easily: theoretically he could regain one life point per turn, by discarding the two cards he draws. This makes Sid a formidable opponent, suited to resist to the most dangerous shootouts, while keeping (or slightly increasing) his victory chances as the game prolongs.

So it seems that Sid Ketchum was, in 2002, considered the weakest (which I can understand), though still apparently not horrible ("extremely dangerous" in the end game). But in 2003, when the cost had been reduced from 3 to 2 cards per life point, Sid is just described as "a formidable opponent".

The new (?) Panic-countering Sid
The quote by Emiliano in my first post is from 2005. So either he changed his mind after that, and decided Sid still needed to have his power boosted even more, after all – now able to counter Panic cards too. Or I misread that quote, and Sid was always meant to be able to prevent Panicking him (if played with fast enough reflexes and/or firm enough gumption). The phrase "at any time" seems to have been always in Sid's rule entry, even if not on his card.

Either way, it did come as a shock to me to read Emiliano's later ruling in this forum. On the one hand, since this chaos and craziness is unique to Sid (as far as I can tell) – even when including the otherwise wackier Wild West Show expansion – it may not have a big impact on the game as a whole. It otherwise still seems highly structured to me, mostly (a case in point is the well-designed Suzy Lafayette, whom I have written about elsewhere) – if with occasional inconsistencies in rules terminology. On the other hand, this only makes the anarchic play order determination that comes with Sid's new (or not?) ability stand out the more – to me better belonging in an entirely different kind of game. Though, I have no doubt, of course, that it will appeal to some.

By the way, does anybody know how Sid's ability works in the recent computer version of Bang! Is it truly "at any time"? I mean, with Sid in the game, can you affect the game outcome by how fast you manage to press some button there?